Stephen B., Johan D., Rebecca G., Aram J., Matthew M., Amanda M., Fredrik S., James W., Malalai Y. - and Ana-Marija
Please follow the letter-writing process described above in the first comment under Guide for Cross-Cultural Collaboration-Spring 2006: “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.” When you are ready to submit your letters, click on the comments link below. A new window will open. Read comments already published, and add yours.
18 comments:
Hi,
My name is Fredrik Svensson, I am a third year student in computer engineering at Chalmers.
I think it was pretty hard to get into this poem, since it seemed so conflicting in itself, named "love song" when the poem in itself does not speak about love. Actually it seems to be pretty far from love, so the question is perhaps what kind of love we are talking about.
He also speaks of time, as time to come and not time that has been. So he seems to look at himelf in what he will become in the future, and how this decision he will have to make will affect the outcome. So my thought is that he is thinking about a life commitment with a woman.
His view of this life long commitment seems to be pretty dark too, since he talks about if it is worth getting old. The life he describes is mostly about a monotonous uneventful life.
About the smoke, mermaids and other things inside I have yet to come up with something that seems okay.
Hello everybody!
My name is Johan and I attend the ”Fiction for engineers”-course at Chalmers, Sweden. I´m on my 4th year to become a civil engineer in the field of electronics and I´m attending this poetry-exchange for the second year.
Now to the poem by T.S Eliot called ”The love song of J. Alfred Prufrock”.
The title has a bit of the ironic touch, since ”love song” doesn´t really match with the name of J. Alfred Prufrock. Surely this is a very concious hint from the writter that the following text perhaps isn´t what it first seems. Following is a quote from ”Inferno” of Dante, a book of a journey through the different stages of hell. This too indicates that it isn´t a classic love song or poem.
I like the start, because it´s different from most poems I´ve ever read. It seems that Eliot really had a thought when he wrote it, and didn´t just put pretty words together.
When the actual poem-part begins it´s a little back to ordinary poem style, or at least it seems that way.
It seems to me like the poem is about a person who is growing old and weary of his own beeing, and wanting to see something new. ”Let us go and make our visit” - row 12
The feeling is that all around him is the same and emptiness and loneliness are getting hard to stand.
He is quite indecisive (”Do I dare?” -row 38) and can´t really make out any sense or plan what to do.
There is some mentioning of famous people in the poem; like Michelangelo, Hamlet and Lazarus. I don´t understand them really, but a guess is that he is in some way jealous on them for achieving more in life than him and feeling that he is now to old the catch up.
It really concerns him about the women-issue, is he to old or not? ”Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare eat a peach?” - row 122
I guess it comes to a time in everyones life when one starts to think about this, and I think this is a interesting and crucial part of the poems origin.
Hope to hear from you! / Johan
Hello Group,
My name is Ryan Wilbanks. I am in Mrs. Reiss English 214 class.
I am a business major at Clemson University, hoping to broaden my horizons with this literature stuff, so please be patient with me. During this genre of literature, I have read that irony was a heavily used device. Initially, right off the bat T.S Eliot hits us with an ironic title. As some of you have mentioned earlier, this poem is anything but a love song. It makes me wonder why T.S Eliot would name this poem the way he did. I mean the only reason I can see he did this was to exaggerate some irony. Does anyone else have some further insight as to Eliot’s purpose for this?
As most of you all have hinted on, I also believe this poem deals with an individual who is realizing things about life. To me I have this picture in my mind of a person (a man) who is getting older and older, and at some point along the way he has lost hope. It is apparent to me that he has lost hope because of line 51 “I have measured out my life with coffee spoons.” Seems like he is not giving himself much credit! One thing that I would like to ask for some help with would be the repeating of : “In the room women come and go talking of Michelangelo.” I am not sure what to get from this. I realize the attention to women coming and going, because it seems this man has women problems. As far as the part “talking of Michelangelo”, it does not make much sense to me.
Thanks,
Ryan Wilbanks
Hello Group 4:
My name is Amanda McLeod. I am a second-year English graduate student at Clemson University. I hope to graduate in May as long as my oral examinations go well. Some background information on me … I grew up on a fruit, vegetable, and row crop farm (no animals). I have 3 younger siblings. I started my undergraduate career in horticulture, but soon found that I loved English too much to quit taking classes (and I was terrified of organic chemistry). I love most styles of music (country, pop, rap, blues, oldie-goldies, etc). My mother is the one who instilled in me the value of music (and I had 9 years of piano when I was younger). And since I am an English graduate student, I assume y’all know that I love to read!!! After graduate school, I hope to be a high school teacher. Since joining this graduate program, I have found that I am truly fascinated with the poetry of T.S. Eliot. I have already taken two seminar classes about Eliot (The Modernist London and Yeats, Eliot, and Auden). Since this was a Victorian literature class, I was not expecting him to be on the syllabus. But since he is, I am very excited to be studying him again.
To begin with, I am going to look at the poem’s title, “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.” I think that sometime people skip over the two words “love song”. I certainly did not think of the poem as a love song the first time I read it. Some questions that I will be exploring in this letter is: How is this poem a “love song”? Who is this “love song” written to? And look at Eliot’s use of music in the poem itself.
A List of People in the poem that the love song might be (or might not be) addressed to: You, I, the women who come and go talking of Michelangelo, John the Baptist and Salome, Lazarus, Hamlet, Matthew Arnold?, mermaids. (there might be others)
There are many different ideas about who this “love song” is written to. It could be written to the “potential” prostitute who is alluded to in the lines about the women speaking of Michelangelo, Salome, and the mermaids. Prufrock is trying to work up enough courage to “go and make our visit” (11). This song is a written account of his inability to be decisive and act… to “dare to eat a peach” (122) or to “dare disturb the universe” (45-6). Therefore the “love song” never reaches the one his is writing to or writing about in the poem.
There are others who say that this is a reflective “love song,” that the “song” is to the speaker himself. The evidence for this is that the poem is mostly about the speaker and not a specific lover. The speaker also seems to have an alter-self … in the first lines he refers to “you and I”. I am more inclined to think that “you and I” are not separate people but separate personalities? Super-ego and ego (or some kind of reference to the Freudian conscious)? I sometimes visualize “you and I” like the good angel and bad angel sitting on Prufrock like in the Looney Tunes cartoons. But this isn’t the only reading of “you and I”… what do you all think about the “you and I” and the idea of this poem being a “love song”.
I’ve just realized that I have written well over the word requirement … but a few more ideas to ponder as we read over the poem again.
Musical elements (or maybe more precise – sound elements):
“muttering retreats” (5) … walking over “oyster shells” (line7) … “tedious argument” (8)
The women talking in a room…a dull roar?
The fog as cats…Carl Sandburg…T.S. Eliot’s love of cats…do cat make music? Purring, hissing, almost soundless movements…
“voices dying with a dying fall/Beneath the music from a farther room” (52-3)
“I should have been a pair of ragged claws/Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.” (74)
And on and on the sounds go. To me, the sounds seem to crescendo and decrescendo in small increments. But never, as the poem implies, reaches the moment to its crisis” (80). Long stanzas are broken by ellipses or short lines such as “I grow old…I grow old…/I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled” (120).
You y’all “hear” any musical elements or sounds?
Sorry for the long letter…I just got carried away. By the way, if anyone has a question about T.S. Eliot, just ask, I have several books of his poetry, prose, and criticism written about him.
Talk to you Later!
Amanda M:)
Hi all!
My name is Rebecca Giddens and I’m a first year Master’s in Literature graduate student at Clemson University.
Now to jump into “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.” (My writing may become long-winded, as right now I have about a hundred things I want to say about the poem.)
I may not make friends in my reading of Eliot’s poem, but I cannot be persuaded to believe that Prufrock is feeling self-conscious. Instead, I sense a tone that is almost opposite to that interpretation. I believe that he is more SELF-AWARE than anything else. He’s also very observant about the world around him and his company. In fact, the speaker may be oversensitive.
As the speaker and whatever company may be accompanying him “go and make [our] visit” (12), there are astute observations about their environment. The city seems seedy and questionable with its impenetrable yellow fog, cheap hotels, and “streets that follow like a tedious argument.” One of the most puzzling parts of the poem, and perhaps one of the most important parts, is the “overwhelming question… ‘What is it?’” I believe the “it” is the big “it.” What is this life? the speaker seems to ask, but he says not to ask the question and cuts short the opportunity by reminding the audience that there is a visit to be made.
Suddenly, he’s in a room where “women come and go/ Talking of Michelangelo” (12-13). I’ve read the poem in a number of different classes. I’ve heard it read by classmates and instructors, but the most revealing reading of the poem is the audio version linked on the sidebar of this blog of T.S. Eliot reading the poem himself. At this line, and its repetitions, Eliot reads it in a dissatisfied, bored tone. It’s sing-songy and presents a cheap version of intellectual conversation. These women are attempting to speak of high culture, but are actually pseudo-intellectuals with no actual grasp on the subject matter, hence the pedantic presentation of the rhyme.
Immediately, the speaker throws us back outside of whatever room he is in and we get a personification of the fog, complete with memory and licking. The fog is given more human characteristics than the company presented in the poem. There is alternation with the inside of this visiting place and a more real world, found outside of this pseudo-society. The intense reflections of the speaker are opposed with the shallow discussion of Michelangelo.
He says “there will be a time/ To wonder, ‘Do I dare?’ and, ‘Do I dare?’” (37-38). He seems to still be pondering the questions of life that began in the first stanza. Meanwhile, he acknowledges his superficial company who he knows will not value him or his ideas on their content or importance, but by his outside qualities like his hairline and physical stature.
The presence of food paraphernalia is abundant. There is toast, and tea, and coffee spoons, and cakes, and ices that are redundant and tedious. He knows the routine of the eating schedule as well as he knows the eyes and the arms and the voices. It’s not only the routines that are tedious, but the sizing-up of an individual is formulaic. If he should speak, he will be “sprawling on a pin,” being scrutinized by the entire company, again, not on any intellectual level. Again, we get a depth found only in the speaker as he wonders how he would “presume.” Should he tell of the things he’s seen in the more real environments of the city, like the dusky streets? (Which are probably a picture of London, so oft described with its ever-present fog, and also being Eliot’s home for some years.)
He knows that his company would not be able to speak on the topics of life and death. He imagines them saying they’ve been misunderstood: “That is not what I meant at all.”
He relies on classical allusions to put this entire quest in perspective. He uses Hamlet, and Greek Mythology, and Ecclesiastes. Perhaps I’ll be able to further expostulate more ideas later, as I fear I’ve taken up too much space here.
Until next time,
peace.
~rebecca g.
My name is Malalai Yawar from Afghanistan. I am attending English 814,
which is about Victorian Period. I liked reading short stories since I
was a teen-ager. I have read a lot of short stories in Pashto and Persian
which are formal languages in my country, but it’s interesting to tell
you what forced me to study literature for writing.
Few years ago I was forced to stay at home by the restrict regime of the
Taliban just because I was a woman. This hurted my feeling terribly and I
started reading some short stores by Edgar Alan Poe, Mark Twain, and one
or two by Jack London. Reading these stories gave me an inspiration of
writing short stories by myself, but because of luck of enough skills in
writing I could not fillful this desire. Now that I have an amazing
chance of studying at the Clemson University, South Carolina, I plan to
achieve this goal, and will start writing short stories about my own life
which is full of ups and downs.
Dear Folks,
I want to talk about the poem “The Love Song of J.Alfred Frock”.The poem
starts with “Let us go then, you and I”. The poet seems to take us with
him someplace to show us something or proof his point. He talks a
somewhat familiar about that place that he describes “through certain
half-deserted streets”. In the sixth line of the poem he mentions “cheap
hotels” and the “sawdust restaurants”. The poet makes an analogy between
what he is about to explain to us and the streets that he remember.
He says “women come and go” and “talking about Michelangelo” two times in
this poem from which we know that he is talking about a setting a place
where “women come and go” and they are talking about Michelangelo. The
writer let us know that this is not an ordinary place where he wants to
go.
In the forth stanza he talks about time repeatedly “And indeed there will
be time”. We assume he is talking about a time that he wants to come face
to face with the person he is talking to. When he say “To prepare a face
to meet the face that you meet”. We know that he is either not feeling
confident or comfortable to come face to face with her.
It is still in this stanza that we know even more about the uncertainty
of the poet. He says “A time for all the works and days of hands”
“That lift and drop a question on your plate”.
After reading the above mentioned parts, we know that he through his life
the poet gets a lot of questions to answer. When he says “And time for a
hundred indecisions”, we know that we are right. By repeating saying
“there will be time” we can guess he is a little bit nervous, too. He
wonders if there will time to change his mind and turn around and walk
away. This part makes it easy for us to know he is not sure of his
courage. At the same time he talks about her “Arms that are bracelated
and white and bare”. He tells us that he knows her.
As we finish the poem “The Love Song of J.Alfred Frock”, it reveals us
different feeling and images of the writer who is deep in love with
someone he knows. He is not certain of himself and even he thinks of
bringing changes in his life especially when he says “Shall I part my
hair behind?” He thinks he is not sure if he has the power to impress
people. In general, this is a sad poem of a man who was not sure and
confident enough to express his feelings to the woman that he liked.
Your friend,
Malalai
Hello againg gang!
It has been pleasant to read your letters and here follows some of my comments.
Matt writes that:
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock” highlights the internal struggle of a man to “make a move” with his female companion and potential lover."
I didn´t really interpret the poem in this way at first, but when I read Matt´s comments it became somewhat obvious to me. I was more focused on the growing old-issue and how things were disguised with words in the poem.
Keyword: Yellow fog – Matt then continues with explaining the yellow fog as representing
"lack of courage and assertion", and this really makes the poem more understandable. I first took the yellow fog for representative of time, which reaches and effects all eventually. One idea is that the fog actually is a "dog", with muzzle and the sudden leaps. Not sure about what the meaning of this is though, something with mans best friend?
Reading further I find that me and Ryan seems to have read the poem in pretty much the same way. Irony in the title, fear of growing old, and fear of not having accomplished as much in life as one wants.
Keyword: Michaelangelo – mentioned by many, and often with different oppinions. In Rebeccas letter she means that this part of the poem discusses the shallowness of contemporary women. I guess that shallowness and only seeing to what other people have managed during life can be the same thing in some way, so we are probably on the same track there.
I think that Malalai´s summary of the poem is quite excellent:
"...this is a sad poem of a man who was not sure and confident enough to express his feelings to the woman that he liked."
And with this I would like to thank you all for your letters, and I look forward to reading more from you on monday!
Best regards! / Johan
Hello Everyone,
I read your interesting observation and analysis about the poem “The Love Song of J.Alfred and discovered that there is still much to discuss about the mentioned poem.
Math, I totally agree with you that “The Love Song of J. Alfred highlights the internal struggle of a man to “make” with his female companion and potentionl lovers.” As a result, he is not certain of himself. When we refer to the part which says “I have measured out my life with coffee spoons” he means he has calculated everything in his life, and he knows what will work and what will not work. It also means that because he is not sure of himself, he already knows what will be her react when he meets her.
These kinds of accident usually happen when a man, who is in love, is a poor man while the woman is from a high position and she is from a rich family. I think he is one of the simple poor people as he talks about going to a cheap hotel.
I also want to respond to Catharina Parlim in group one. Yes, you are allowed to talk personally and indeed expressing personal feeling makes your letter more interesting and it gives your letter a variety.
I wish everybody a have a successful semester, full of joy and happiness.
Sicerely yours,
Malalai
Hello Again,
Wow, after reading all the comments this poem is starting to fall into place a bit more. I might say I have been doing a bit of research on this poem and it has not been as helpful as this forum has. The way you all are breaking things down is awesome! Anyhow, when I wrote previously I was having a problem with finding the link between the repetitions of Michangelo. I think Rebecca has an interesting view on this, she said that basically the women saying this are trying to “sound smart”. After reading the poem again this makes perfect sense because of the environment in which this scene seems to take place. To me the narrator is like Rebecca says “self aware”, he sees all of these people trying to impress each other, and seem to be more than they are. Think about it when people are around others of the opposite sex the need to impress is a somewhat natural instinct. Furthermore, our narrator sees this and knows what is going on, as if he has been around this situation before, and it bores him hence the repetition.
Another view I found to be interesting was Johan’s. He mentioned that the fog may in fact be the narrators “best friend” like a dog is. Since we have all agreed that this poem is of a man who has confidence issues, here is a connection I made after reading Johan’s response. Like Johan says this “fog” may actually be the narrator’s best friend. The reason is that in the poem he jumps around from scene to scene, but makes mention of this fog. Could it be that this fog he talks of is a place to him that he can hide and go through life almost unnoticed? I look forward to hearing your responses.
Later,
Ryan
Hello everyone,
I really like seeing what everyone had to say about the poem.
I would like to say to Johan. The allusions that you are unsure about (Michelangelo, Hamlet, and Lazarus) can have several different meanings (different critics will tell you different things. Also, if you have an idea about what an allusion means - try to figure out why you think that way - because individual responses have validity too).
However, if you would like a quick overview: Hamlet - Even though Prufrock does not think of himself as a "Prince Hamlet," he has some of the same characteristics as Hamlet (the inability to make a decision (at least at the beginning of the play), the relationship (or lack of) with Ophelia, and also the "To be" speech is some what similar to Prufrock's "Do I dare"...these aren't the only connections, just some that I have heard in class.
Lazarus - because Prufrock doesn't act, he is inert and kind of dead himself. He wants to come back to life to have a second chance to "say what he means" - again this isn't the only meaning from this reference.
The ladies speaking of Michelangelo - I like Rebecca's understanding of "Michelangelo" the best - however, I have also heard that "the ladies speaking of Michelangelo" represents 'ladies of the night' - but I'm not sure where these meaning originated.
I think I mentioned other references - John the Baptist and Salome - this is in the lines "Should I, [...] Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis? [...] Though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter,/I am no prophet ..." Salome asked for John the Baptist head on a platter for her birthday - and she wasn't disappointed. For some this line in Prufrock shows that he [Prufrock] has been emasculated and/or impotent. (Eliot, himself, had problems with impotency). Anyway...I hoped this helped...these are just ideas and suggestions ...not a definitive answer.
Anyway, I think I have to respectfully disagree with Rebecca. I totally agree that Prufrock is very aware of his surroundings...describing the yellow fog...the images of the streets...etc. However, I do think that his is becoming self-conscious of himself. He is conscious that he is unable to act. He is conscious of the fact that he is getting older, etc. (However, it could just be that our definition of self-conscious and self-aware is the same thing).
Just a comment on the yellow fog...even though I am a dog person, I have to say that I think the yellow fog is more cat-like. It could be that I am familiar with another poem, Carl Sandburg's "The Fog," which describes the fog as a cat. And since the poems have similar images of the fog, I just associate the fog automatically with a cat. However, I think that the lines "curled once about the house, and fell asleep" sound more like a cat. (Though I can see how the word "muzzle" could lead the reader to think of a dog). Also, just as a side note, Eliot owned many cats and wrote several poems about them. (Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats and others).
Anyway, talk to y'all later!
Amanda M
By this point I’ve read or listened to the poem about twenty times and it has not gotten old.
Now that I’ve seen everyone’s first response, many second, and hence many comparisons, many people keep saying that the narrator is speaking about an aborted love for a woman. Like I said, I’m not going to make any friends in this forum, but there is only one use of the pronoun “her” and no particular woman by name, demonstrative pronoun, or otherwise. So on that, we do not agree.
There is much talk of the title not being descriptive of the poem. And I do agree with Ryan that this is an exaggeration of irony. Irony means a discrepancy of what is and what appears to be, so if it appears by title to be a love song, in truth it would be a lack of love song, perhaps a lost love, but this is not guaranteed. As to whom it’s addressed, I believe it is a dramatic monologue, not meant for reply, but a personal meditation, but as for a particular audience, I like the open-mindedness that Amanda shows the subject. As for the name in the title, there is never any pointed proof that the titled person is the same as the speaker, but the last name is curious indeed. Prufrock. Someone in another forum suggested prudishness. That’s interesting, but how about “proof rock”? Like rock-solid proof of something. A something definite that we don’t, and he doesn’t know. Like the question he tells the audience not to ask.
I also like the attention to time that Fredrik gives. Time seems to slow for the speaker. He dwells in his very moment at the same point he talks about seeing his “greatness flicker” and anticipating his physical decay. Also the etherization upon the table lends the poem to a sluggish, slow reading, a drawing out of the long lines and a sort of sigh between extensive thoughts. I think I read somewhere a comparison of the bit about rolling it “into a ball” to Andrew Marvell and a meditation upon the metaphysical world. I laud that reader, whoever it may have been.
Only one more thing. The debate about the fog and the dog is frustrating me a little, because I clearly see the fog being compared to a cat, known for nuzzling, licking, curling, and for me does bring back vivid recollections of Carl Sandburg (like Amanda).
I stick by the speaker's exhaustion with the mundanity of things and that he knows ahead of time that he is being examined, but has grown to accept it as a part of these "visit"s.
I love this extended discussion. A true sign of great poetry is a never-ending debate and a myriad of interpretations. Any poem that can be explained outright doesn’t deserve the time it takes to read it. Good job, Eliot!
peace,
rebecca g.
Hi group!
I enjoyed reading your thoughts, particulary Amanda and Rebecca's . Since they seem to have some form of expertice in this area which I lack.
However, after reading all of your comments I decided to try for an interpretation as to how I read it.
I think he talks about himself, like Amande talked about. "you and I" refers to himself as both the simple man and the intellectual who will be created by his surrounding when taking the step into that world of critics.
He then takes himself around bars and other intellectuals (critics?) with shallow not too impressive discussions of Michelangelo (and perhaps other deep matters).
I read the "yellow fog" as dog. And that like it will be time for the dog, it will also be time for him to build up his personality and put up a front when around intellectuals (27).
There will also be time for him to grow old, in due time (39). And that his surroundings will talk about his ageing. He seem to ask the question if he dares take the step into this world(45) when most of what he does will be scrutinized.
Here is where I don't quite follow. I think this has something more to do with that he knows his audience and that they will fixate him into one type of mold (55) and that he already knows that.
He then wonder if it would have been worth while, in the end, to make the decision to move into this world of critics (87). It seems as though he don't want to play the leading role, but is quite pleased with just be a supporting character (111). To not stand out.
I'm not quite sure about the ending though. The mermaids and such.
I am quite sure though, that it has quite little to do with love to some woman or person.
I think it more has to do with love to writing. Eliot is quite young at this time, and he is also unpublished, so to write a poem about how it is to be old and bald seems strange.
Hello Group,
As I have said earlier this forum is great. Since I am not really a literature person I really appreciate the insight you all have provided. First off, the second responses were great. As Rebecca mentioned, this poem is really unique, because we all have so many different reactions to what we are reading. I guess in a sense poetry is like art, its meaning is in the eye of the beholder. In letter two of this forum I was somewhat convinced that the fog was for sure representing a dog. After having read Amanda’s post I think she makes some good points about the fog being cat-like. Most notable that Eliot was a cat lover, some information I was not aware of, and also some of his other poems show strong symbolism of cats.
Fredrik also made some great points in his post. He reiterated the idea that the narrator is very complacent. For example his is content with just being average, like Fredrik says he tries to not stand out. I know Rebecca and Amanda have been discussing if the narrator is self aware, or self conscious, could it be that he is a bit of both, just depending on the situation he is in? I am not sure, any insight would be great. One other thing I would like to touch on would be the symbolism of the mermaids at the end of the poem. Like Fredrik, I myself am a bit confused to the meaning of this.
As for a poem that is similar in theme to this one, I picked “The Wasteland” part one. Available at ( http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/ ). I think this poem is similar, because it seems that the main characters are somewhat to themselves. To me it seems that the main characters in both of these poems are like outsiders looking in. I look forward to reading your responses.
Later,
Ryan Wilbanks
Greetings for the third and final time!
It sure has been great reading your letters, ant taking part of your oppinions once more.
I´d like to comment on Malalais interesting interpretation of "I have measured out my..."
Could it really be so that the circumstances weighs heavier than real love? Isn´t that the classical love story when "impossible" lovers do find themselves together (Romeo and Julia and pretty much every movie made ;)
As for Rebecca referring to the fog as a Cat I can see this connection to. When discussing the matter in class we even saw the possibility for it to be a snake. This gives a bit more grim and uneasy feeling to the poem don´t you think?
As for the representation of the mood in the poem I have found a picture of an alley.
http://www.f1point4.com/photos/uncategorized/prague_street2.jpg
This matches pretty well how I see the surroundings in the poem, and I can almost feel the yellow fog lurking around the corner. Understanding this poem is all about getting a certain feeling, and kind of domesday-lack-of-hope where meaning and reason is beginning to loose their purpose.
I think most can agree that the feeling of beeing all alone in the world is not a very nice one, but something I guess everyone experiences once in a while. The situation when one are confronted with what seems as impossible love is perhaps when you get the strongest kind of theese feelings. Then, and when you´re feeling old and about to die, something that I sense is a important part of this poem too. So this alley represents beeing alone and vulnerable, and thats how I guess Eliot meant us to fell when reading his poem, or at least how we´re supposed to interpret the main character´s feelings.
See ya! / Johan
Hello group,
It has been rewarding reading your thought.
I am on the line of thought as Ana-Marija, that he does seem to be outside of society in some way. Or more like he is outside watching in, perhaps not wanting to take the step into it in the first place.
The discussion whether the fog representing a cat or a dog feels like it doesn't matter much, since it just seem to lead the poem into something else. I can settle for that it 's representing a pet.
As for representing the mood is tricky.
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/cssa/2005newyear/Contest/Michael%20Yuan-Lonely%20Astronomical%20Observatory%20on%20top%20of%20Mauna%20Kea.jpg
What are we looking at here, well, its an observatory on a mountain. I think of the poem the same way, a lonely place looking away into the unknown.
Fredrik Svensson, Chalmers
Hi all!
Ryan suggested that the fog might be “a place to him that he can hide and go through life almost unnoticed[?].” I like that suggestion a lot, but I would like to put out there that you should end this sentence with periods, because your suggestion is a good one and should be said without hesitation. I also want to thank Amanda for her all-around knowledge of allusions and classicist references which are helpful when reading the oh-so-traditional Eliot. To add to the Hamlet idea, I would like to assert that Hamlet says basically that he is not cut out to perform the duties of vindication, so when Prufrock says, “I am not Hamlet,/ Nor was meant to be,” he too finds himself in a position he does not feel naturally comfortable in.
I believe the movie Lost in Translation is complementary to the mood and theme of “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.” Starring Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson, the movie presents two individuals who feel cut off from their environment—hectic Tokyo. They are each searching for someone who understands them, and so much is said with implied speech and acknowledgment. The subtlety is paradoxically very loud. The colors in the film are reminiscent of “the patterns on the shade.” (Bill Murray’s character is even a balding, aging, outdated movie star!) There is an apprehension present in both characters and nothing comes of their short-lived relationship, except an abstract of a relationship.
Lost in Translation links:
Official website, complete with movie trailer:
http://www.lost-in-translation.com/
Facts, casting, etc courtesy of IMDB
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335266/
Reviews
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/lost_in_translation/
It’s been a lot of fun, folks! I hope everyone considers studying poetry and has a great semester!!
peace,
rebecca g.
clemson, victorian poetry
WOW!!!
I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on the poem!
Just to say:
Wonderful idea, Fredick! :) "I am quite sure though, that it has quite little to do with love to some woman or person. I think it more has to do with love to writing. Eliot is quite young at this time, and he is also unpublished, so to write a poem about how it is to be old and bald seems strange." This statement made me think. I once had a professor to comment on the fact that Eliot is quite younger when writing a poem about a man who seems old. His understanding is that Prufrock himself is not an old man but a young man afraid of growing old. He's thinking about when he will be old (and roll up his trousers to walk along the beach...). But what really caught my attention about this statement is your comment about the poem really being about writing itself (or more specifically the writing of poetry). Then more I think about it the more it makes sense. What if the mermaids who won't sing are actually the muses of his poetry? What if what he really is worried about is that the "muse of poetry" might leave him and he will be unable to write great poetry? What if this is a love song to the "muse," more like a plea to the "muse" to come and visit him? In the Romance tradition of the Middle Ages (and I think Ovid), love was suppose to be unattainable and painful. (This is where our expressions of "falling in love" and the image of Cupid's arrow come from - true and pure love was supposed to actually hurt). This, of course, is just some things that I have floating around in my head. I'll have to think on it more to get a better idea of how Prufrock's (Eliot's?) fear of losing his skill or talent or gift of writing great poetry.
Johan, you are absolutely right: "When discussing the matter in class we even saw the possibility for it to be a snake. This gives a bit more grim and uneasy feeling to the poem don’t you think?" Just because Eliot was a cat-lover doesn't mean that the fog can't be a snake and/or a dog too (this is what is so great about poetry - the many different ways it can be read).
Ana-Marija, this is a great statement: "The idea that he is not “one with” society does seem to exist within the poem. For another example he only “watches” the lonely men smoking, indicating that he is not even a part of that group. He feels like he doesn't belong anywhere." I think this idea of Prufrock as an observer of people, an outsider is important. I also think this has to do with Prufrock/Eliot and the idea that the poem could be about writing...Writing about what he sees as an outside observer...Placing himself on the outside would allow him to judge objectively (which is one of Eliot's main theory of poetry - it should be impersonal - or the "Impersonality of Poetry" - not that I agree with him - I just think he says one thing in his essays and then does somewhat the opposite - to prevent noisy people like me who will read Eliot into Prufrock - beyond the point - I digress).
Ok, now I know no one bought into my theory of "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" as music itself; however, I would like one more chance to see if I can convert you to the dark side (ok, maybe not dark, but you get the point!)
The music that I would like to compare it to jazz and the type of music that you would here in the musical "Stomp" - the music of everyday life - what the "muttering retreats" actually sounded like...if you where Prufrock what would you hear...the crunching sound of oyster-shells as the restaurant patrons leave arguing with one another...the chit-chat of snobby women talking of nothing...coffee spoons hitting the outside edge of the teacup. Sometimes we forget that music does not necessarily have to be beautiful to be music. Jazz is built on syncopated rhythms and flat notes (among other things). So, to show you doubters that music really does factor into Eliot's poem's "Portrait of a Lady," "Preludes," and "Rhapsody on a Windy Night" all are heavily influenced by music. The music in the poems is not harmonic or melodic but has a quality of dissidence. Just as the music “sounds” off, the subject/topic/characters in the poem are somewhat “off.” Just like Prufrock cannot act on a relationship, the relationship between couple in “Portrait of a Lady” is never consummated (or builds into a lasting romantic relationship). I think that as the poems are written the “music” of the poem becomes more dissident or maybe the dissidence is more obvious. Look at the website http://www.bartleby.com/198/ to find these poems (you don't have to look at all of them; I just can't help but to include all of them). The other poems also have musical references in them; however, these are the ones which use music the most in this particular collection of poems. Many of Eliot's poems are influenced by music: classical and jazz, Beethoven quartets and the fresh new music of Gershwin and ragtime. If anyone is interested there is actually a CD of music that is based on one of his most famous poems: The Four Quartets. It is called "Gubaidulina: Offertorium" by Sofia Gubaidulina. http://iclassics.com/productDetail?contentId=13999. You can listen to 30 second clips, but that’s all…which is why I decided not use this as the main outside comparison to Prufrock. Clemson has a copy of the whole CD in the reserves if anyone at Clemson is interested.
Anyway, it has been wonderful seeing one of my favorite poems from so many different angles.
Best wishes
Amanda
Dear All,
I am so happy to write you again. Most of you have done a great job. It shows that
you are so interested in the work of this poem even though some of you are from
different background and that you are not majoring in literature.
Johan d, I am so glad that you liked both my summary of the poem and
the interpretation of the “Love Song of J.Alfred Prufrock.” It
encourages me to continue my work more passionately.
Caralee f, I liked your work more this time because you and I have
nearly the same feelings towards this love song, but I found it
difficult to satisfy me .I don’t agree with you when you say “…that
through the years, Prufrock’s law self esteem has arisen from time the
rejection he has experienced with women.” I belive this is his first
time that he has been in such a difficult situation. I also believe
that because this poem is written many-many years ago, and it was a
time when people could not express their feelings straigt to a person
whom they loved. The man maybe uncertain and even shy to tell her so.
This is especially true about the situation in my country,
Afghanistan. People in my country find it difficult to write a poem
that shows he /she is in love with someone.
I liked the poem you have chosen by Jessica Lee Marie Kronaizl. She
uses very simple words describing an important issue “ Rejection”.
Rabica, your view on the part about “ Michelangelo” is a very
interesting one . Like I said in my previous letter, the place where
the man wish to is not an ordinary place. This is a place where women
watch the Michelangelo’s paintings and then they talk about it to show
others that they know him very well and Rabica makes this idea more
clear when she says “ … the women tries to sound smart”.
I hope to hear more about this important issue. Take care.
Malalai
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